Yet another reason to loathe Clinton
(Thanks to Jay C. for the heads up)
August 31, 2006
Nobody Has Trackbacked Yet
The trackback URL for this post: http://www.southernappeal.org/index.php/archives/1622/trackback
-
Search SA
-
Premium BlogAds
-
-
Patron Saint
Pages
-
Archives
-
Blogads
-
Meta:
Powered by WordPress
August 31st, 2006 at 7:54 pm
You guys are so desparate to prop up Bush, you’re STILL taking shots at Bill Clinton.
Wow. And I thought you were “through” with Dubya.
August 31st, 2006 at 8:00 pm
You’ll note that the focus of the post is Clinton, not Bush. I am not attempting to prop up anyone.
I do, however, appreciate that President Bush is willing to respect the teachings of the Catholic Church when he attends a Mass.
August 31st, 2006 at 11:04 pm
I am a Southern Baptist and I have taken the Holy Eucharist on more than one occasion (typically on Christmas Eve because my church does not have such a service.) As a non-Catholic, I did not know that there was a proper way to “refuse” mass, but it did not and does not matter to me. I personally felt little difference in taking the Eucharist as I did the Lord’s Supper. I took mass not out of obligation, but out of my love and following for Christ. Call me a heathen, but I am one who believes that my Christian faith transcends church dogma wherein taking holy sacrement - in any form - honors my love for Christ and his Church. Admittedly, I took mass for purely personal reasons - I have no idea why Clinton did it.
August 31st, 2006 at 11:48 pm
Here’s an Episcopal altar rail story that Steve will particularly like. Hat tip to Iain Murray at the Corner. http://rgj.com/news/printstory.php?id=102184
September 1st, 2006 at 12:02 am
I have to agree with V for Vanity (at least in spirit). I know the Roman Catholic Church frowns on it, but I think the Episcopal rule that any baptised Christian old enought for reason should be allowed to participate in the Eucharist makes more sense. I undstand the R.C. Church has reasons for its rule, but it should be rethought (at least for visitors).
One of the rules is to take confession before participating in the Eucharist. Something President Clinton probably could have benefited from. Then again, we all could benefit from that.
My grandmother was Russian Orthodox (she converted for my Grandfather who was Sicilian), but I used to go to Russian church with her occasionally. I liked the emphasis on ritual and the onion domes on the church. They serve babka as the Eucharist bread (a cultural twist from the matzo like wafer!).
September 1st, 2006 at 9:32 am
Joe:
I must add that the Eucharist I observed was at an Episcopal church, so I guess that might make a difference. That being said, even if I would have been at a Catholic church, I still would have participated in mass - assuming that as a believer in Christ, I would have been allowed.
V
September 1st, 2006 at 11:47 am
i had wonder bread and water in a mormon church once …am i going to hell? also i have a RC friend who goes to a small church and waits to be the last person in line so that he can, in his own words, “kill off” the last of the wine….is he or his church doing something wrong by letting him do this?
September 1st, 2006 at 11:52 am
Lucas:
I kind of prefer the “hard stuff” over the Welch’s grape juice meself.
As for the “wonder bread” thou may be damned ….
V
September 1st, 2006 at 11:53 am
Lucas:
Aren’t Donny and Marie Osmond Mormons?
If so, shouldn’t Hawaiian Punch been served?
V
September 1st, 2006 at 11:56 am
If Catholics showed as little respect for your religions as you show for theirs, I’m betting you all would have plenty to say about that.
Gee, Southern Baptists don’t like it when people drink beer and fart loudly during their services, but as a good Christian, I don’t see a problem with that. Why are they so uptight, man? Religion ought to be what everyone wants it to be, right?
Next time the Catholic Church needs some advice on how its theology should be changed to please other religions, I’m sure the Pope will be calling you folks for your wisdom.
And they say you can’t stereotype some people. Ha!
September 1st, 2006 at 12:14 pm
Whoaaaa mo, as a life long Catholic and a product of parochial grammar and high school, I am not an outsider. Trying to partake in the Mass and the Eucharist is not exactly the same as drinking beer and farting loudly during a service. Episcopals, I believe, allow any Christian to participate. And although Bill Clinton broke the rules–I though he was Episcopal not Southern Baptist. I am pretty sure an Episcopal or Orthodox Christian can become a Roman Catholic fairly easily (they don’t have to go through the whole education process). I am not recommending civil disobediance by getting non-Catholics to go to Roman Catholic churches and take communion. I just think the Church should reconsider that rule.
September 1st, 2006 at 12:19 pm
Steve: You’re right, your post doesn’t mention Bush. But the linked post where we have to get details about why we “loathe” Clinton is a direct comparison between the two.
And Mo: I don’t think that the Southern Baptist who said s/he took communion at mass was intentionally being disrespectful. Protestants are used to openness and inclusivity (to varying degrees) in church. Our invitation to the communion table always includes words to the effect (whether spoken by the celebrant or printed in the bulletin) that _all_ who profess a Christian faith are invited to partake in the sacrament.
I don’t accept communion on those occassions when I find myself at mass. I don’t know that I’d call it a gesture of respect, per se. I just know that since I don’t believe in the transubstantiation of the elements, it would be pretty hypocritical for me to accept communion from a priest who does.
September 1st, 2006 at 12:44 pm
Joe -
That was sort of the point. “I think the Church ought to reconsider that rule” shows a complete lack of understanding as to why the Church restricts Communion to Catholics who are properly prepared.
If limiting Communion to Catholics who, presumably, understand the doctrine of transubstantiation and the state of grace required, (instead of opening it up to anyone who beleives in Christ) is the pesky “rule” you’re referring to, I guess the Catholic Church would be like a lot of other churches who compromise and compromise and compromise until they have a really warm and fuzzy place where everyone is comfortable with the rules, or should I say the lack of rules.
Faith is not about rules. It’s about believing in the teachings of your faith, whatever that faith may be. I’m sure Madoona really believes that a red string will ward off the evil eye, and Tom Cruise has worked hard to become a Thetan IV. I could care less about what they believe, and I wouldn’t suggest that they change the string color to suit my tastes, or relax the standards to elevate to Thetan V.
But no one has a problem saying the Catholic Church should change this, or change that, because they don’t like certain rules. And people who claim to be Catholic are some of the worst offenders when it comes to criticizing, instead of simply having the personal integrity ot say “I don’t believe that, and I think I’ll find a religion whose teachings are more in line with my beliefs.
A Catholic who says “what’s the big deal with Communion?” really doesn’t show a whole lot of understanding of their own faith. It’s the old “I’m a Cubs fan, so I speak with authority when I say the Cubs suck.” Pretty lame.
September 1st, 2006 at 12:44 pm
Mo:
Having lived across the street from the house where the priest lived, most of the beer I saw being consumed was on Sunday morning by parishoners in the front yard of the rectory. As for Baptists, we just drink and dance in our closets.
I see Joe beat me to the post so I will not repeat and expound on what Joe has so well said.
Donald, I appreciate you coming to my defense, but I do believe that I am one of the few who can view the Eucharist and the Lord’s Supper as one in the same. The rest is merely church policy. If Christ’s blood was shed for my sins and I genuinely believe that, whether I believe what the wine/juice from the cup becomes that is somewhat immaterial and unless transformed through faith, somewhat a physical impossibility in this life. The overarching point is that it was and is an unselfish gift of grace - a symbol of eternal life should I chose to partake of it. It also reminds me that my sins will be cleansed by it. It does not matter is if it is a silver chalice we each drink out of or little plastic juice cups. However we commune within the tenets of what was considered the first Lord’s Supper, I call that “respect” and if we are commanded to share the love of Christ - should be more inclusive.
As an NC (non-catholic) by taking mass, is God going to fault me? I think not.
September 1st, 2006 at 1:15 pm
Let me say it more succinctly: If you don’t like the “rules” of the Catholic Church, feel free to ignore them. Just have the respect for the faith of others to not go into their church and make up your own rules, and they will probably do the same for you.
As for your bigoted comment about Catholics you’ve observed in your lifetime, I will politely refrain from playing tit-for-tat with regard to Southern Baptists I have known and their various pecadilloes.
September 1st, 2006 at 1:17 pm
V.-
With respect, it’s not about what you feel personally, or your motives in taking communion.
If you are in a Catholic Church, you should not take communion unless you’re Catholic. If for no other reason, then your host (the Church) has asked that only Catholics receive communion.
September 1st, 2006 at 2:14 pm
On a personal note, I have a question. As a non-christian I am curious if it is ok to attend Sunday Mass?
I have attended with a Catholic friend of mine. Of course I did not take communion. I have great respect for Catholicism and
am curious about what the host’s (the Church) position on that is.
September 1st, 2006 at 2:16 pm
V lol…yeah they are and mormons are pretty hard core about clean living…almost makes your teeth hurt…but they are kind of like the SB when it comes to putting notches on their six shooter of salvation..in the words of delbert(or was it elbert) from (oh brother where art thou)….”come on in brothers…the water is fine”
September 1st, 2006 at 2:24 pm
Mo:
You brought flatulence and bigotry into the foray, not I. Never did I imply that we are not all capable of sin.
Steve:
If I recall, this post was created as a showing to “loathe” Clinton, a non-Catholic for taking mass. There was no political commentary expressly added to the post. However, to make it politically, or at least “Catholic-correct” you added a photo comparison of what all good non-Catholics, like President Bush, should do in refusing mass. The subcontext in making the comparison is that non-Catholics who don’t “know” are ignorant or “loathesome” (which Webster’s 9th ed. defines as “disgusting”) if they proceed to take it. When I “unwittingly” took mass, I felt anything but disgusting.
Here’s what Christ said about communion: “Then He took the cup, gave thanks and gave it to them, saying, ‘Drink from it ALL of you.’” (Matt. 26:27, emphasis added.) I don’t see any preferential treatment as to who or who should not be taking communion (assuming they first believe in Christ) in that statement. I do concede that all religions should be able to take communion in a form that adheres to the rules or norms of their particular church. That’s why there protestants and Catholics, etc. But to imply someone of another faith “disgusting” because they do not know the “limitations” that the Catholic church places on communion is of a wholly different vein.
I never like it when someone says if “Christ were alive today …” or “What would Jesus do?,” but I believe that Jesus would say that His body was broken for all …and for those who are viewed as inferior because they did not properly “refuse” it because of differences in religion or were “encouraged” to refuse it because they did not first know the catechism of the church presents somewhat of a unnecessary obstruction to communing with God. There again, to each his own … and I personally do not view any religion as inferior … but I’d be weary of the “wrong signals” that might be sent in making the comparison.
Peace be with you ….
V
V
September 1st, 2006 at 2:41 pm
V-
And also with you.
First, you did not take communion at a Catholic Church, so this really isn’t an issue with you personally.
Second, Clinton knew damn well that he wasn’t supposed to take communion. He just didn’t care. The notion that he wasn’t aware of the restriction is absurd. he knew. He was just too damn arrogant to cross his arms or sit in the pew.
Third, I realize that you don’t think the restriction imposed by the Catholic Church re: communion is biblical, but that is really beside the point. You’re not Catholic, and as such you should respect the Church’s wishes on the matter. As I noted in a previous post, you should do so, if for no other reason, than because you’re a guest at that church, and that is what has been requested of you.
Look, I know that you are a devout Christian, and appreciate the feelings you’ve expressed re: communion. But taking communion in the Catholic Church is different than doing so in a protestant church. It isn’t just meaningful. It is everything (because of our belief that we are literally eating the body and drinking the blood of Christ). For someone to take communion during a Mass, but not believe as we do, is not only disrespectful, it’s blasphemous. It is not up to you or any other individual to determine whether it’s o.k. to take communion. The Catholic Church has already made the decision that it isn’t, and even if you disagree with that decision, you should respect it.
September 1st, 2006 at 2:49 pm
Okay - I am a lifelong, practicing Catholic and I’m here to tell you that ALL are welcome in our churches at any Mass so long as the guests display respect and decorum. HOWEVER, receiving Communion is a sacrament of the Catholic Church and is ABSOLUTELY RESERVED only for baptized Catholics. To you guys it might just be bread and wine, but to a Catholic it is a great deal more than that and OUR BELIEFS should be respected.
I don’t amble into an Orthodox Synagogue wearing flipflops and short shorts and sit my happy butt down amongst the men because that would be offensive as hell to them and whether or not I agree with it, I would respect it.
Christianity and Catholiism are NOT interchangeable, despite the posturings of others who don’t know what they’re talking about. And the receiving of Catholic sacraments when you are not a baptized Catholic is sacrilege, plain and simple.
September 1st, 2006 at 3:02 pm
I agree with Steve. As a Reformed Episcopalian, I never receive communion at a Roman Catholic Church out of respect for that denomination’s right to set its own rules. I do look forward to the heavenly feast, where the truly catholic church feasts in unity.
September 1st, 2006 at 3:18 pm
Blasphemy is defined as “insulting or showing contempt for irreverence for God.”
Does that mean if I as a protestant Christian, take mass (assuming that I am unaware of Catholic doctrine), that I am insulting God???
Agreed that inadvertently insulting the Catholic Church, but God Himself ??? Come on ….
September 1st, 2006 at 3:34 pm
guys …have we forgotten why europe had the 30 years war or the english revoultion? have we forgotten why there is an anglican church or why there are lutherans? it is because we (humans) dont get along with each other when it comes to religion…a true fire and brimstone SB will save and baptize anyone who will hold still…the RC wants you to do a little more for salvation…big deal respect it and let it go….the only true way any of us are going to find out who is right and who is wrong is when we all kick the bucket.
September 1st, 2006 at 4:00 pm
I am surprised Steve did not comment on the story about General Lee going to the altar rail reported on the Corner. I thought it was a good story and never heard it before.
And again, I am not promoting other Christian denominations sneaking Roman Catholic Churches to have the Eucharist, but just suggesting that the Church might reconsider that rule.
September 1st, 2006 at 4:04 pm
V -
Try this on for size: If you assume (just for the sake of argument) that Catholic theology is absolutely, positively 100% correct, then would it be blasphemous to regard the body and blood of Jesus Christ as mere bread and wine, when (according to Catholic theology) God himself (through Jesus, one of the Holy Trinity) already told you that you were eating his body and drinking his blood? Is disagreeing with God himself on what he said or meant at the Last Supper blasphemous? Some would think so.
“Communion” - get it?
As for my flattulence and beer drinking in a Southern Baptist church, I would never do that, out of respect for that religion. But if it is up to every individual to decide for themselves whether a given religion’s traditions and “rules” are worthy of being followed (as you seem to suggest when it comes to taking Communion), then what would be so wrong about me deciding not to honor the Souther Baptist “rule” about not drinking beer in church?
An absurd example, I grant you. But the logic is irrefutable. The point is that you cannot demand that others show respect for your religion, if you are not willing to show respect for theirs IN THEIR CHURCH. Respect in the public square is an entirely different issue, as all Catholics would recognize your right to hold whatever opinion you wish - while not in their church.
September 1st, 2006 at 4:59 pm
MO:
What if I said as a Baptist that I also believed that I was partaking, venerating ..whatever the correct word is … that the body of Christ was transposed within me in partaking of the Lord’s Supper? If I don’t believe that It is, why even do it? As Baptists, we do say before the cup / bread is passed, “This is my body (or blood when appropriate) that was broken for you.” Did you know that? Maybe you need to try that on for size before you pass judgment.
My whole point has been I find a WHOLE LOT of similarity in the way our religions commune - much more than there are differences, but RC’s seem to “highlight” and/or pass judgment (e.g., “blasphemy”) on those differences. Thus, the original purpose of this post.
I deeply respected the Eucharists that I participated in, but I also have such a hard time believing what I did was wrong or offensive. I believed I was showing immense respect in the Episcopal church, not to mention my love for Christ. No one said I did not respect the church around me, but it’s mighty strong to say that I debase or insult God by doing so. My intent was genuine. I dare say if you communed with me in a SC church that you would be not be turned away. Nor would I try to convert you, but merely as brothers we should remember Christ’s commandments in rememberance of the shedding of His blood and what that accomplished and accomplishes IN us.
By no means am I trying to demand that RCs “accept” a willingness to commune with you … I just wish that as a protestant, you would not view me and others as inferior or ascribing to “less than a perfect religion” because some of us do.
Like Lucas said earlier, if you’ll get outside your comfort zone, I think that you’ll see that the water is indeed fine.