Coretta Scott King dies
Coretta Scott King has died at the age of 78. She apparently passed quietly in her sleep. Given the many tumultuous years of Mrs. King’s life, it seems fitting that God would give her peace as quietly as He did.
I’ve never been all that familiar with the Civil Rights Movement. My generation, for better or worse, knows more about Jesse Jackson and Al Sharpton than we really do about King’s efforts anymore. Sure, we’ve seen the footage of Birmingham and sit-ins and the like, but I don’t have a good working knowledge of the fabric of the movement or who played what roles in the process.
With that said, I’d really like to think we have readers here on SA who are very knowledgeable on the subject. Perhaps some even witnessed events at the time. I’d like to designate the comments section for this post as an area to leave your reflections on the Civil Rights movement, how it’s benefited us as a society, how it’s impacting on us today, and what the future holds.
My feelings: I support equal rights for every American, regardless of race, gender, sexual orientation or religious belief. I believe that when a right is denied to a group - due only to their group identity - while shared by others, something has to give. I also cannot fathom the courage that must be necessary to stand up and demand that kind of equal treatment. To that end, I have nothing but awe for the Civil Rights pioneers in this country who demanded equality.
Now, I think some of the more modern incarnations of Civil Rights activists are perverted by an unhealthy obsession with the continuation of racial tensions in our society. I believe some level of racism will probably always exist (just as ignorance, illiteracy, etc. will), and we should address specific cases where that racism harms others. But in terms of the Big Picture, I think we realistically need to get to a point as a society where racism is no longer institutional or accepted. I think we are very, very close to that goal.
As for the future, I believe you’re going to see more and more folks coming to the side of people like Clarence Thomas, Bill Cosby and Morgan Freeman - people who apparently believe the institutional problems are close to resolution and who want to see our society attempt to move forward in a less factious way. I also think you’ll see race warlords on the national scene so long as people are willing to send checks into their various foundations. It is a free market, after all.
January 31st, 2006 at 9:35 am
“But in terms of the Big Picture, I think we realistically need to get to a point as a society where racism is no longer institutional or accepted. I think we are very, very close to that goal.”
I think we are nowhere near that goal.
January 31st, 2006 at 9:48 am
Difference of opinion, I guess. I grew up in a functionally segregated town in Florida. Very black and white - thick with both individual and institutional racism. I’d venture to say that when I was a kid growing up here, you wouldn’t want to stand trial as a black man in this county.
I moved away for about 10 years. I returned to find a city that had grown by leaps and bounds in terms of institutional race relations.
It’s not that I disagree with you per se, TP. I agree that there is still a lot to do. But when you consider the history we have had in this country and how far we’ve come since the 60’s, I think we’re relatively close to the goal of addressing racism at the macro level.
I do not believe we will ever have a solution for racism on a micro level, so I’m not really accounting for that. (Perhaps that’s a little sad on closer analysis, but I really think we’ll always have a chunk of folks of every race who think other races are inferior or less deserving).
January 31st, 2006 at 10:04 am
In Rem,
You didn’t say “we’ve come a long way.” I think we’d probably be closer on that than we are on whether we are “close” to our goal now. I don’t think we are. I try to recognize how far we’ve come while also lamenting just how far we must go (and I think it’s a painfully long way away).
January 31st, 2006 at 10:17 am
just how far we must go (and I think it’s a painfully long way away)
TP, in what do you think the gap consists? What evidence is there to back up your claim? If we have that far to go, how do you think we need to get there? Since institutional racism needs to be “fed”, what are the engines that remain behind them, and how can they be dismantled? To what extent will institutional racism always be a problem because of how it is necessarily intertwined with individual racism, and to what extent can we separate, or at least correlate these phenomena? Do we have any active avenues left, or only reactive?
I’m not asking to be confrontational, but because I consider myself woefully underinformed on the subject. I think it is a debate worth having, and I’d hate to see this particular instance simply end with two contradicting assertions.
January 31st, 2006 at 10:42 am
“To what extent will institutional racism always be a problem because of how it is necessarily intertwined with individual racism, and to what extent can we separate, or at least correlate these phenomena?”
I think this is a big part of the problem, actually. Ultimately our systems boil down to people, and people are flawed. It seems logical to me that what may be rooted entirely in individual racism (something like being less responsive in your duties to a request from a black client or customer than to a request from a white customer) can have institutional impact.
I’m thinking, for example, in terms of court process; if you have an attorney with his own biases, and he represents both white and black clients, but only gives his top services to white clients, the black clients may suffer from lack of opportunity in their law suit. Now imagine that person is a public defender or state’s attorney…
Ultimately I think we have to have policies in place to deal with these people - and I think we’re getting there - but we can’t really screen these people out until they’ve manifested their racism through their office in injuring someone.
If we use the tired disease metaphor, I think racism is more an infection than a virus. We’re developing the antibiotics with mixed results (to treat infection), but I don’t think there’s ever going to be a vaccine (to prevent virus).
January 31st, 2006 at 10:47 am
TP -
I’ll go with a more optimistic “we’ve come a long way”. That’s probably more fair than to suggest we’re a breath away from resolving all racial issues in this country.
I do think, however, that racial harmony is poised to spread further, deeper, and wider than ever before.
January 31st, 2006 at 10:52 am
You know, TP is right that we have not come as near to a color blind society as we need to be. And we won;t be there until Sandra Day’s magical 25 years have passed and we can finally drive a stake through the heart of affirmative action.
January 31st, 2006 at 11:09 am
you can’t force people to like each other…there will always be a tension between black and white…examples like white flight will always be around, if not from hate then from fear. i can tell you that i do not like to drive or walk in the black part of town because i am fearful of the ugly looks and threating words…anyone who does not think that blacks will be even more = in the future needs to listen to and look at a white teenagers music collection..i live in the south and i see things that in the 50s and 60s would have called for at least a beating (black and white sex, blacks in the white part of town, white kids being with black kids) mostly the worst thing that will happen these days is maybe a dirty look (most dont hate enough to say anything in public anymore)..it is better and we are close to getting as good as it is going to get because there will always be whites that blacks and there will always be blacks that hate whites…its just a fact but i will go so far as to say that right now these “haters” are the minority
January 31st, 2006 at 11:36 am
Marc,
The easiest and most accessible way to view the gap is closer to my own areas of work (health care), namely, health disparities. As study after study comes out that shows disparate treatment for similar conditions of patients of different ethnicities, of different health consequences for patients of different ethnicities, it seems almost impossible to ignore.
I think you are asking all of the right questions, and, unfortunately, I don’t have any of the answers. Some of the best work in African-American studies, both in law and in other disciplines, is devoted to examining the history and current state of more subtle, institutional forms of racism, and to trying to begin to pose some responses to the questions you offer here.
Unfortunately, I don’t have any real answers here. I’m a cynic; what can I say?
January 31st, 2006 at 12:40 pm
This is amazing. You are talking about racism?! The South became Republican based upon Richard Nixon’s Southern stragety and it remains so today because of issues of race and bigotry against blacks! Who do you think you are kidding? Bigotry against gay people is the touchstone of Conservatism today.
Excuse me but do you think it is appropriate to call someone a “moonbat” simply because their political opinion is different from yours? Isn’t the appropriate thing to do, put forward an argument refuting their points rather than calling them names and acting like you are the only ones who know THE TRUTH and all you have to do is annouce it to the world and anyone who disagrees hates America.
If Jews have been hated and killed and chased out of every country they have lived in and therefore want a safe homeland for themselves, does that justify committing a holocaust against dark skinned people who NEVER did anything to them and taking their land? How can Jews say killing Jews is wrong and then proceed to ethnically cleanse others and take their land!
If someone is raped on main street then do they have a right to kill every male who walks down main street so they never get raped again? What right do Jews have to kill Palestinians just because Jews have been the victims in the past? Does another wrong make a right! Don’t talk about prejudice because people like you don’t have the right.
You people are so clueless you are the last people on the planet to persume to talk about racism.
Since when does the United States round people up and lock them away without due process and torture them? Judge alito will give the executive branch the power to do this very thing which Bush is doing.
Why didn’t the Jews carve out a peice of land in Germany and make their homeland in Europe since that is where their historical suffering has been? Because they couldn’t seize German land and kill them at will with the help of other white people but they could do it to dark skinned Arabs.
Why do you support a rightwing court and a rightwing Executive Branch that is based on prejudice and then persume to talk about racism!
The Palestinan people who are christians represent the oldest Christian sect in the world. They have the same DNA as Jesus Mary and Joesph and the ancient Jews and they have lived in peace with dark skinnned jews for thousands of years in that land that god promised them.
You don’t want to hear this because it mucks with your dogma and preconceived notions which is all you have. You don’t base your beliefs on facts and form your opinions as a result. You form your opinions and then seize any information that can back up your beliefs. You can’t handle the truth.
Playing the race card is what Jews do everytime someone makes political arguements against what they are doing. Bringing up the nazis is about as legitimate as southern people bringing up Reconstruction. Neither Reconstruction nor the nazis have anything to do with what is happening politically today and people should be able to oppose our occupation and rearrangement of the middle east without being called vile names and having the anti-semite card played.
It is obsence that anyone would say that the ballroom dancing show is bigoted against blacks when clearly it isn’t. In the same way it is utterly ridiculous when people constantly play the anti-semite card so they can silence descent.
I was beginning to think that blacks couldn’t do ballroom dancing until I saw Jerry Rice. They should have thrown P off on the first night.
We gave Jews 100,000 dollars per family to remove them from the Gaza while our own people who were victims of Katrina have to beg for charity. How do you explain these things since you are so sensitive about race? I can’t wait to read your enlightened tolerant views.
January 31st, 2006 at 12:42 pm
I agree with TP. There is a long way to go.
Nevertheless, it’s amusing to watch a bunch of overeducated white men discuss the “instiution of racism” in almost purely academic terms. The academics of racism are not the problem. The actualities of it are.
January 31st, 2006 at 12:59 pm
Yeula
I made a few benign observations about the Civil Rights movement and offered a post recognizing the passing of Mrs. King. I invited discussion of the issue.
You stereotyped my, referred to me as “you people”, went on a tangent about Jews where you focus almost exclusively on the color of the factions’ skin, presumed to be shocked that I would express an interest in racial issues (itself somewhat a racist reaction), introduced gays into the mix under a GOP agenda (an agenda I don’t think I professed as my own).
In short, you attacked me and every person on this blog based on a loose stereotype of a “conservative” which you have almost certainly learned through left-leaning websites.
You profess to be astounded by my post, but I would suggest you come to terms with your own baggage before you point out what you perceive to be mine.
January 31st, 2006 at 1:02 pm
Amanda -
I don’t think my post is academic at all. It’s mostly based on my impressions of the state of race relations, my personal feelings, and an invitation to discuss.
I don’t see how the color of my skin should factor into this… how do you know I’m not black, anyway? Are you making broad generalizations, or have you seen my picture (which is very possible).
I just can’t wrap my head around the idea that I’m not allowed to recognize the passing of Mrs. King and then open a discussion of race relations, in part as a tribute to her so we can reflect on whether or not we’re where we should be so many years after MLK’s death.
January 31st, 2006 at 1:28 pm
what do jews have to do with southern red necks hating blacks?…if your really good at hating you hate jews,catholics, methodists,native americans, middle easterners,northerners, indians(from india),asians,people from florida, mexicans, south americans, central americans, candians, and blacks……if you hate any less your an underachiever
January 31st, 2006 at 1:32 pm
city slickers can be tossed in there to …and women that work…oh oh and long haired hippy type pinko fags….everyone knows these are what real southern men hate
January 31st, 2006 at 2:25 pm
John Lewis has just published a memoir called “Walking with the Wind.” I have not read it but it comes highly recommended. “Eyes on the Prize” by Juan Williams is a good primer, and Taylor Branch’s three-volume series is supposed to be excellent.
January 31st, 2006 at 3:17 pm
Thanks, Grover.
January 31st, 2006 at 3:22 pm
Ignoring the obvious irrational comments, this is an interesting discussion. Sure, society has progressed to be much more integrated, but it’s still not fully so. But will it ever be? People form groups all the time, around socioeconomic status, hobbies, religions, race, gender, etc. Does this make them prejudiced or bigoted? Not necessarily. There’s much sensitivity around divisions and differences based on race, but how much of this is just a matter of people hanging out together based on common interests or backgrounds?
I’m not proposing one way or another, just presenting another idea for consideration. There’s nothing wrong being prejudices FOR something, but there is a problem being prejudiced AGAINST. If I’m prefer to be around people of similar age and lifestyle, is that a problem? I’m not so sure.
Here’s another thought that I don’t have an answer to: how much does groups like the Black Caucus, Hispanic Chamber of Commerce, etc. perpetuate racial divisions among us? Are these racist organizations if they don’t let other races join? If so, why are they accepted?
Okay, long post, no answers, but definitely a discussion worth having.
January 31st, 2006 at 4:47 pm
I am a southern white male. I was raised in the deep south and have dealt with issues of racism all my life (having witnessed the views of people within my community). I have to honestly say that I have never adhered to racist beliefs, such as bigotry/hatred of someone because of their race, creed, religion, or sexual orientation. My father taught me that I should form my opinions of people on their character and their actions and that everyone should have the freedom to live their own lives as they see fit. He taught me that the freedom to choose is the fabric that makes our country great. I feel that while there may still be some aspects of society that exclude various groups of people, (go to most country clubs) I believe that much of the ‘racism’ is more in the minds of individuals as opposed to ‘institutional racism’. I admit that I do not know where most institutional racism exists, but feel that it probably exists in various forms. When referring to institutional racism, I am of course referring to the exclusion of people from institutions such as government agencies and businesses due to race, religion, etc, and applies to policies, systems, and processes which are not necessarily caused by intentional racism but which have the effect of disadvantaging certain racial groups (source: Wikipedia). If we are going to battle institutional levels of racism such as businesses that hire due to racial standards, groups that discriminate because of religious beliefs or sexual orientation, then should we discuss these issues on BET? Racism exists on all levels, within all groups of people. All societies and cultures have been persecuted at some level and at some time in history. Most individual racism that I have witnessed has not been a direct result of hatred on the global level etc, but seems to be due to the need of individuals for familiarity and security. This in of itself seems irrational to me, but is very real to many people in our society. As a mental health professional, it is easy to say that until all people of all races are able to deal with these irrational mentalities that influence individual beliefs, then racism will continue to perpetuate our society on all levels. The more we continue to distance ourselves from others because of our need for security and recognition of our agendas and beliefs, the more opposition we will face, which will lead to further exclusion. In that instance, everyone will feel persecuted. Every democracy has a majority within its realm, and that majority influences the structure and practices of that society to fit the beliefs of what is theoretically the best for the whole. Logically this is not always the case and individual racism has been a factor that has influenced the practices of our country in the past. However, I feel that our country has made great strides in improving race relations in modern society and that people have more rights and liberties than any other time in history. The level of understanding between various races that we have in this country is a direct result of the pioneering work of Dr. King and many inspired individuals. These individuals worked to advance the equality of all people on an institutional level, not promote their own individual needs or to exclude themselves from the rest of American society because of irrational beliefs or hatred. We as a society of multiple cultures, races, religions, beliefs, and political backgrounds need to forget about how we have been wronged, how we have been persecuted for our beliefs or skin color, and need to work together to improve our society for all people. If we are ever to advance to the level of rational thinking that transcends race, we should be able to include all people in our group that is America. If this were to happen we would not have the Klan, the Black Panthers, we would have no need for a Black Caucus, a Gay and Lesbian Coalition. People would be able to discuss issues openly. I am not sure if we will ever advance to that level as a society. I do know that all Americans have that right to work to make their lives better and that freedom of choice is inherent in our society. We may not always have all of the choices that we want and we may not like all of the answers that are available, but we do have choice.
January 31st, 2006 at 4:50 pm
Sorry for the long post. I may ramble here and there, but I put in my thoughts for the most part. Great website and Go Dawgs!!!! (Just wanted to exclude myself from anyone that may be Bama or Auburn fans. Not really helping with the whole, ‘lets all get along’ argument.)
January 31st, 2006 at 8:02 pm
I hope this is not too long but it is certainly long. But as the only old person here (apparently) I cannot resist weighing in with my own experiences.
One of the only advantages in being *really* old is that I actually remember the way things were long before most of you were even born.
My family moved to St.Petersburg, FL in the late 50s. I grew up in a St. Pete that was still beautiful and not an overbuilt hell hole. You could actually go to the beach… you just picked any spot along the gulf and occupied it. Sigh.
In any case, my earliest memory is of my mother and father taking me and my grandparents to Webb City. Now for you that do not know, that was a tourist attraction and shopping center of unprecedented dimensions.
It occupied several blocks just west of downtown and consisted of (as I remember) a dept. store, furniture store, pet store, etc.
In any case, in we went to the grocery store and ogled the untold gazillions of shoppers and tourists. The noise was deafening. My parents and grandparents stood in line to get ice cream while I looked for a restroom.
I found them alright– one marked colored women and one marked white women only. Not far away were water fountains; one marked colored, one marked whites only. When I found my parents in the ice cream line I asked my mother why the restrooms were marked colored and white.
Have you ever experienced an incredibly noisy venue becoming dead silent? Or so it seemed. I don’t remember how my mother answered. Though I didn’t know it at the time, Col.Webb was an old fashioned segregationist and so were an awful lot of the people around me in those days.
Fast forward a few years. The schools were integrated by court fiat. With feverish excitement we 8th graders awaited the arrival of our token negro. As the police drove up, I listened to many of the kids around me saying things like “my mother told me not to talk to them” “My parents said if we give them an inch they will take a mile”…
Thankfully, some of my friends and I thought that was a grotesque way to treat a new student and determined to befriend her. But for all the huffing, I will say that I don’t remember a bit of trouble that day nor the next year when we were fully integrated.
The Civil Rights movement was upon us. You can have no idea how many of us white kids idolized MLK and thought him nothing less than a hero and a prophet. I still, to this day, get tears in my eyes when I reread certain of his writings. Just thinking of him having to explain to his little children why they could not go to a new theme park that was opening *still* has the power to put my stomach in knots.
The revelations later that he was human and one with many flaws, does not have the power to overcome the really heroic aspects of his character.
Fast forward another few years. I am a freshman at FSU. I have befriended a young woman who works in my dorm. We both work as switchboard operators part time (don’t ask what a switchboard is. You’ve seen them in black and white films).
I had busted some bones in my foot but was determined to walk to town one day for some reason. My friend looked at me hesitantly, when I told her and said haltingly, “I would be happy to give you a ride, if you don’t mind being seen with me”. You see, she was black … I am tearing up as I write this 35 years later. Things were better. But they still weren’t perfect.
Just a few weeks ago (I came back South recently after having lived among the Yankees for the last 25 years.) I drove to Birmingham with two professional colleagues, both African American. A state trooper passed us on the way. Never gave us a 2nd look. We went about our business and then went to Ruby Tuesday to get a quick late lunch before heading home. The restaurant was filled with diners just like us. Some tables were white, some black but most were mixed like ours. I could not help but be struck by what the passing of 42 years had wrought. Now, 42 years seems like a long time and it is in the life of an individual human being. But it is nothing in the life of a nation or an institution.
So for me the answer seems self-evident. Things have hugely improved in many, many ways. And it really has to be asked– at what point does it matter if someone is a racist, if he treats me respectfully and does not discriminate against me? Are different educational or professional outcomes necessarily racism?
I thank God that I live in a middle-class neighborhood surrounded by white, black and Korean neighbors. I thank God that this is normal, these days. I cannot speak for anyone else but it is hard for me to see how the future cannot help but continue to be brighter for all Americans.
January 31st, 2006 at 9:36 pm
Lily,
That was beautiful and spot on. You could have written pages and pages more, and I would have gladly read every word.
And your point about 42 years - how it seems like a long time but really isn’t - is also sort of what I’ve been getting at. We’ve come a long way, and I think in another 10 or 42 years we’ll be even better than we are in 2006.
The part of Florida I am in (Lake City) still has a Webb’s Antique Mall… I wonder if it’s the same Webb…